Design Notes · · 22 min read

Fashion From Another Planet: Julian Zigerli, Zürich Fashion Designer [SF Design Week]

Fashion designer Julian Zigerli on un-gendering clothes, cultural influence, and adaptation.

Fashion From Another Planet: Julian Zigerli, Zürich Fashion Designer [SF Design Week]

In this episode, part of San Francisco Design Week's Digital Edition, Liam speaks with Julian Zigerli, a designer in Zürich, Switzerland creating clothing that allows everyone to decide how what they wear expresses who they are. In the interview, Zigerli describes how the rich culture of Switzerland impacts his work, what it means when someone asks for "straight" clothes, and how his creative practice adapted in a time of pandemic. Content warning: In this episode, the word "queer" is used in a reclaimed manner.

Liam Spradlin: Listeners will know that the show has been on hiatus for almost a year now because of the current situation in the world. A lot has changed. Our perspective on our work has changed, I think my perspective on the show has changed, but there are a couple of things that I still want to hold on to in terms of how the show is run because I think there's still a lot that we can learn from especially two questions that I want to ask. The first one is who are you and what is your work (laughing) and what is the journey that led you there, both the how and the why of like how you arrived at the stuff that you're doing now?

Julian Zigerli: I'm Julian Zigerli. I'm a designer from Zurich, fashion designer, and I'm doing fashion, menswear, women's wear, lots of accessories. Yeah, it's fashion (laughs). And how did I arrive there? I mean, I was always interested in fashion itself and, uh, I went to Berlin to study at the University of Art, and it was one thing I knew I'm going to be good at when I realized I want to do fashion. Yeah, it was my [inaudible 00:02:03] basically (laughs). And now I'm like 10 years in with my brand, back in Zurich since 10 years already, and, uh, started my brand 10 years ago and, yeah, it's been kind of growing the whole time and like evolving and like finding new ways on how my fashion or like the Julian Zigerli fashion can be adapted.

Liam: I think, from my experience of your work anyway, I, I think it has a very strong aesthetic and I think it has a strong point of view and I'm interested in knowing a little bit more about how you got there. How did you develop the like style of your brand?

Julian: I think it's been there since the beginning basically. I mean, and during my whole studies, I always knew like, at some point, I kind of want to do my own work, and that's what I've been working for, or what I've been, uh, studying for, like to really create your own spectrum or universe of, uh, how you think fashion or like clothing should be. And, uh, from the beginning on, it was always this very playful, uh, approach to design and like very comfortable, but also fun and happy. These are like synonyms, you would say, uh, which you can connect to the work I do.

Julian: And, um, it's been growing, but we always stayed on this path, or this track, and to keep it very aesthetic and very ... storytelling is always a big thing about like every collection has its own story and like its own kind of, uh, visual language, but it's all connected with everything else we do. We don't reinvent the brand every season from scratch. We keep on going.

Liam: How do you come up with that story or how do you conceptualize like what a collection is and what it does?

Julian: There are so many different approaches to it. Like sometimes a title comes into my mind or like an idea or, yeah, something, it doesn't really, (laughs) it doesn't really matter in the end, and then, uh, I start building something. Like I always call it I'm building a box and whatever fits in this box makes sense and, whatever doesn't fit in th box, I need to cancel out or like don't put into this collection. And, uh, yeah, it's always a spontaneous approach, I'd say, to a theme or to a topic and, uh, yeah, once I started with the title of a collection, then the whole thing started with this title and then, another time, I knew I want to work with a artist, we do a lot of creative art collaborations for print designs, so sometimes it's, uh, a artist collaboration I know is going to happen and then the whole thing builds around this. But, in the end, it's always the final collection, actually.

And that's also something which changed. It's been a crazy year, but we already started to change a bit our way of how our industry should work. Uh, we already started that a year ago, basically, like in November, last year, two years ago basically (laughing) and we don't really focus, uh, on collection, seasonal collections anymore. We take it on the go. We're like still processing how this, this works for us. So that's a bit like a new angle, to not think of a complete, full collection, but to think of a theme and put it in different parts.

Liam: So maybe the, um, distortion of our perception of time that I think we collectively experienced in 2020 have informed-

Julian: As I said, we already started of this in November 2019. I had this idea to not finish a whole collection, to just like start working on it and then see how we can evolve it, and then, yeah, corona happened and it basically underlined our new way of working. It was like slowing everything down, make it more easy for us also to work on it, and it basically helped to create this path (laughs).

Liam: The other thing that I'm really interested to get into, because it's one of the things that excites me about doing this podcast in the first place, is understanding the relationship that a creative person has to their work. And I love a metaphor, so (laughing) when, when you say that the style of your brand becomes a universe or (laughs) a space with this cohesive aesthetic, what are the planets or galaxies in that universe for you?

Julian: The whole Milky Way, I feel like, (laughing) also because the Milky Way is such a beautiful, uh, thing to experience when you look at it and also the, the idea of it. So, yeah, it's a ongoing street (laughs).

Liam: Are there also things that you can identify from your life or your experience that really inform your approach to the work?

Julian: I mean, um, really, like my work and my life is quite separate, but it's also, at the same time, I'm living it, so I'm really in it. I'm also wearing it all the time, like I wear my work every day basically, so I think, there, it kind of melds together.

Liam: What does that mean, you're living it?

Julian: I'm also putting my face on the brand a lot, so it's like, my personality, I think it all is kind of part of the aesthetics or the designs I do, so this fun and quirky kind of way of life basically, and also I love different things. I'm, I'm very interested in like outdoorsy stuff, for example, so I'm trying to keep it dynamic.

Liam: So the brand is at least partially expressed by your presence in it.

Julian: I guess. I mean, I don't really see that because I'm doing it (laughs).

Liam: Yeah.

Julian: I'm too close to it, so I guess, for the outside, I am kind of a big part of it, but, also, sometimes it speaks for itself.

Liam: But then I would also ask, or maybe say, that (laughs) the brand could be something that you use to express yourself. Maybe that sounds obvious.

Julian: Could be, actually (laughs). I mean, I'm designing loads of things which I really personally love to wear, so, yeah, I do use it also to express myself, of course.

Liam: I'm interested, especially since I moved here, I think that the experience of being visibly queer in a place like Switzerland is different from New York, where I'm from, I think that's probably true of anywhere in the world, but I'm interested to understand that experience as it relates to this location. Does that make sense?

Julian: I think so (laughing). Yeah, the brand is visibly queer. I'm queer myself, so I don't hide it, I also show it and I like to show it, but I think it has to come natural.

Liam: Mm-hmm.

Julian: Like I don't are play this gay card. It's just part of it. And, uh, being in Switzerland doing this, I guess it takes balls, (laughs) but, on the other hand, it's also, since I don't title it as a gay brand, like it's just clothing you can wear and everyone can decide for themselves what to think of it or how to wear it or when to wear it and where to wear it, if it's Switzerland or New York or wherever, and, uh, I think it's more like a way of expressing. And having this bold language and designs in Switzerland, it takes a moment (laughs) for people to understand what you're doing, but, uh, we've been here now since 10 years and, in the end, actually Switzerland became one of our biggest market of our work and I never really expected this to happen.

Julian: Like, when I started, I was always like, "Okay, I'm going to do it. I'm going to be based in Zurich. I'm going to do it from here using this, uh, not really big, uh, fashion industry we have in Switzerland to really stand out, I guess, from others as well and then never really think about ..." Like I always try to think outside the border, so it was never ... that Switzerland was never our foc- focus. We always try to really work internationally, and that still is the case, but it became important for us to also be in Switzerland.

Liam: And you mentioned this thing of like taking a moment for people to understand their encountering the work or like their understanding of the work and what it means and that it's okay to express yourself through fashion this way. Is that something that you think about?

Julian: Not necessarily, I, I think more in the beginning and now less. Like we know what we're doing (laughs). We don't have to rethink every time. We're like, "Okay, this is going to work. This is not going to work." We kind of know what we're doing and, uh, yeah, that helps a lot, having such long experience.

Liam: It's funny, one of my questions that I had prepared beforehand was whether you wear your own work often (laughing).

Julian: Uh, yeah, um, mostly toe to top (laughing). Working on some shoes at the moment, so.

Liam: Yeah (laughs).

Julian: Yeah. That's also the, the fun part of not focusing too much on collections, seasonal collections, anymore, but more conceptual work. I still want to keep on doing it and, uh, it's actually the most fun you can do like to have really a collection with a theme and, uh, really make it very conceptual. But then also, since we have the shop since ... three years, we have a shop in the Niederdorf in Switzerland, in Zurich, it helps to also create products which are not necessarily connected to any collection, just like think about the product it- itself or the design itself and ... I kind of lost my thread there, but-

Liam: Yeah (laughing).

Julian: ... I think you know where this is going (laughs).

Liam: Yeah, yeah. And I think it comes to my mind that a lot of successful creatives talk about creating work for themselves, (laughs) does that make sense, or creating the work that you want to exist?

Julian: Um, to a certain point. I don't have myself in my mind when I create that much. I think this is like something which comes organically, like is always a big part of it because I also kind of, kind of imagine how this piece, like how does it look when you wear it. So, basically, you know, I know myself the best, (laughs) so I, I guess this is always kind of a part of it, but there's also a lot of pieces which I don't necessarily want to wear or will wear or I just know they're not for me, but we're still doing them. It's not that the collection are always just for me.

Liam: Right. Maybe the work is not specifically for you, but it is created from your perspective.

Julian: Yeah, for sure.

Liam: That makes sense. There's another topic that kind of stems off of this whole conversation, in my mind, which is something that you posted on Instagram a few months ago. In your story, there was as screenshot of a DM that someone had sent you that asked, "When will you make clothes for straight people (laughs)?"

Julian: Oh, yeah, that was a good one (laughs).

Liam: And-

Julian: Very interesting question (laughs).

Liam: ... and I really want to unpack that to the extent that we can (laughing) in a 30-minute interview or whatever (laughing). Um, I've been thinking about this question like ever since I saw it.

Julian: Oh, really?

Liam: It was actually as I came to Switzerland. To start with, I want to know what your initial reaction was and how you perceived that question.

Julian: I mean, you saw the, the reaction I had. I actually really had to post it in the stories. I never really do that. I don't necessarily receive that many weird, funny questions, but that one was just like, okay, what the fuck am I going to answer, answer to this question? Like there was one million ideas, but like none really kind of matched, so I was like, "Okay, let me, let me ask the community (laughs). Let me see what they have to say about this." And, uh, it was also a bit, like a tiny bit, making fun of this very weird question, like what does that even mean, making clothing for straight people? Like what does it mean? Like I really, I still don't really know (laughs).

Liam: Yeah. But I think this ties into what we were talking about before, which is like this, uh, like kind of lapse in understanding. Like I think-

Julian: It's very narrow-minded, um, and that's basically what I try not to do. Like, when you enter my shop, we have sometimes people ask like, "Do you also do menswear?" or "Do you also do women's wear?" And I'm like, "Hey, just have a look." Like we don't separate the pieces in the shop. It's like all is hanging there, no matter women's or men's or gender fluid. It doesn't really matter, like it's just there. It's clothing. And we have men trying on dresses. They don't really care. Like we really try to open up these boundaries and, in the shop, it's really easy to do that, and then, when you receive a question like that, it's like, "Okay (laughs). I don't really know what to answer you."

Liam: Yeah. And I, I think that perspective of like, "We don't necessarily do menswear or women's wear," maybe you just do wear (laughs).

Julian: We, we wear (laughs).

Liam: It feels, it feels-

Julian: We wear and we wear (laughs).

Liam: ... it feels very intuitive, as queer people, to think of it that way, but I ... but, but it seems to me like someone who would ask this question is identifying something again the work that tells them like it is, it is gay or it is queer, but also like it is not for straight people or like, "I do not have access to this creative work," for reasons that were not-

Julian: Yeah.

Liam: ... identified in the question.

Julian: I mean, I didn't ask him, so.

Liam: Yeah (laughs).

Julian: It would have been interesting to reach out to this person. Uh, what I can say, like we honestly, 10 years ago, we started as a menswear brand. Like it was like my decision to focus on menswear, really only do menswear. We had really like a very sporty and sexy and like creative kind of approach to it, and still do and it's still very sexy. Like I love a good boy in my dre-, (laughs) in my clothing. And, uh, at some point, like we had female customers from the beginning on, like it didn't really matter, and then, at some point, we decided to include dresses, like really do women's wear pieces. And, at some point, I was like, "Hey, let's just do whatever we do and we don't really need to divide it in parts."

Liam: Yeah. There's something about like who feels like they can access certain clothes in a way that, that maybe other types of design or art don't experience.

Julian: Yeah.

Liam: So we've discussed how you relate to the work, how you create it and engage with it yourself and think about it, but also how the work engages with the world. How does it fit? What is it doing? What is the impact of the work, I guess?

Julian: I think it has its own little niche. There's not that many brands I would say you can compare it to. Like it's very its own kind of thing. And, uh, I guess the, the strongest language we have is our print designs, so there's always a message when you wear them, like you can tell it's a Zigerli. Like I heard, I heard that, a lot of times, that people who are wearing stuff from me, even if it wasn't without any print, like they're like, "Ah, people recognized it." So it's really its own little universe, (laughs) a little alien walking through the world (laughs).

Liam: Yeah. So there's like recognition. We've established like the work has this aesthetic. It is its own alien walking through the world (laughing) from some other part of the creative universe.

Julian: Uh, you can be part of the clan (laughs).

Liam: Yeah (laughs). Yeah, like you can join this universe.

Julian: Yeah.

Liam: Like that recognition, I think, is also serving a purpose too.

Julian: I mean, that's actually beautifully put because, uh, we really want to make it so people can join and like really share it and love it as well. Like it's very, it's a very kind, kind of, uh, happy feeling we want to do with our clothing.

Liam: Yeah, and I think, going back to this question, because there is an untold amount to unpack there, again, this like moment of needing to perhaps reckon with the existence of like a pink jacket or a dress that a man can wear. There's a kind of confrontation there that I think has a lot of potential.

Julian: Mm-hmm.

Liam: Like maybe ... I don't know if you remember any of the answers that you posted to that question, but I wonder–

Julian: No, I don't (laughing). Need to check the archive (laughs).

Liam: ... I wonder if that person saw those or if there was a moment of reflection-

Julian: Yeah.

Liam: ... that was triggered by that.

Julian: I was thinking about that, like to share I with him, but then I also thought like it's not really ... I don't know, I mean, it's not that nice to post someone's DM or a story. It's not something I would do in general. It was just this one specific question-

Liam: Yeah.

Julian: ... which I picked out. I was like, "Okay, I need to share this with the world."

Liam: Yeah. But I think my instinctive reaction to it is like there's such a big conversation to be had.

Julian: Yeah.

Liam: ... with that person. But, on the other hand, as you said, like you're creating this work intuitively from your perspective, you're creating things that you want to see in the world. That's the work, and it isn't necessarily your work or my work to guide someone on that journey. But it is interesting-

Julian: We could help them, (laughs) I, I guess.

Liam: We could.

Julian: But, I mean, there's ... we also don't create something which needs to be understood by everyone-

Liam: Mm-hmm.

Julian: ... you know, so, uh, fair enough, there's a question like this coming up at some point, I guess (laughs). It's, it's not designs which everyone wants to wear or can wear or understand. Like sometimes ... I hear a lot of comments like, "Ah, what's this pajama (laughing)?" because we do like prints from toe to top and, uh, fair enough, if you want to call it pajama. I love looking comfortable and, uh, wear prints, so (laughs).

Liam: Yeah, I mean, why not? I guess like one theme is like, yeah, you can wear this as pajamas-

Julian: Yeah.

Liam: ... if you want.

Julian: You can, of course.

Liam: You can wear this business suit as pajamas or ... (laughs).

Julian: I actually started some pieces as pajama (laughs).

Liam: Yeah?

Julian: Yeah, because it's like silk and comfortable, so why not? Maybe it's interesting to hear the opposite side, like what's the client's idea when he buys Zigerli or why would he buy something from me? And you are actually a client of mind, so what brings you to my shop?

Liam: I think, uh, I think this is interesting, turning the question around on me-

Julian: Yeah (laughs).

Liam: ... but I think my perspective on what I wear is similar to yours in the sense that like I see it as an expressive surface for me and who I am and what I want to look like and who I want to be every day and I choose what I wear on that basis. And so I think I picked up on the vibe of the designs at your shop are things that are accessible as you want them to be and expressive as you want them to be and unique. It has a unique point of view and perspective and I appreciate that in a design.

I think probably I've become more conscious of that type of expression, especially since coming here to Switzerland, because, as we discussed, there is this moment of perception leading to understanding or this kind of confrontation that causes someone to think like, "Those clothes aren't for straight people," and I kind of indulge in that a little bit (laughing). I think it's kind of interesting, I think.

Julian:Yeah, yeah.

Liam: Reading, uh, a book called Insult by Didier Eribon, he talks a lot about this idea of the relationship between subverting and assimilating to dominant culture and the fact that like those things are always happening at the same time and, when it becomes effective is when you are aware of the proportions of those things, when you're doing it, how much you're doing it, and why you're doing it. And I think that clothes are like a very effortless but high impact way of engaging in that. So that's why I dress the way I do (laughing).

Julian: Also, love the fact that we can talk forever, like there's so many reasons why you would buy Zigerli that it's actually nice. And I love the fact that you say like it's you decide on, uh, what you're going to express with it or like how you're going to wear it and like that's the whole idea. Like you can wear the most craziest piece, but the way you interpret something else in it, you make it your own.

Liam: Yeah, it's open-ended and I think it takes a lot of awareness to come up with that interpretation or that, you know, approach to wearing clothes, as simple as it sounds.

Julian: Yeah, (laughs) that's true. You have to think of it, about it.

Liam: I'm going to get a little more specific-

Julian: Mm-hmm.

Liam: ... about the work and talk about maybe a specific collection that stands out to you and then dig into that and get into the details of like-

Julian: Mm-hmm.

Liam: ... where it came from and what it might mean, if anything.

Julian: Um, there's actually maybe like two or three collections I keep thinking about or like ... I mean, I love all my babies which I created, nothing stands out more than something else, but there's one which I like to tell the story about these art collaborations we do like every second or third season at least. We have a artist where we collaborate with. And there was this one collection in 2014, the summer '14 collection, we collaborated with Katharina Grosse, which is like this really big name in the art world. Uh, she lives in Germany. And, there, I literally turned the clothing we created ... uh, uh, I made like a kind of, uh, a canvas (laughs). So we, I basically created a blank canvas on a body and put it in her studio and she painted on it, so that was a very, very beautiful collection of fashion and art and like how, how you can connect it and it's also a very visual connection. Like you could really see how this happened.

Not every artist collaboration works the same way. This was this one specific one. And then there's also, talking about Switzerland again, like where I am now since 10 years, and also one of the reasons, basically, I came back is like this, uh, flora and fauna we have in Switzerland is beautiful and, two years ago, I really wanted to work with Switzerland as an inspiration and I started Carrot Believe It collection, where I used Switzerland and Japan as an inspiration. And I realized how fucking beautiful it is to work with, uh, Switzerland as an inspiration and you could create so many also a bit ironic (laughs) prints with ... like, there, we did all the prints ourselves. Like there was no col- collaboration and, yeah, it was just, it was, it's never-ending.

And, uh, ever since then, I keep thinking about doing it again, another collection like this, because, after finishing the summer collection, it was summer '19, I immediately said like we'll do, again, Switzerland for the next season (laughs) and we did a completely different story. It was the Ring My Bell collection. It was just more, uh, [foreign language 00:25:40] we say in Switzerland, really like countryside, like wood and ghosts, like really mystic kind of vibe. So it was a completely different story, but, again, like I love to have my home country as a inspiration, but really translate it so differently.

Liam: You talk about combining the design sensibilities of Switzerland and like all of the inspirational things that exist here with a place like Japan, and it strikes me that, even within Switzerland, there's such a rich diversity of local cultures to explore as well.

Julian: There is. It's such a tiny country and (laughs) there's a lot. Yeah.

Liam: So we've talked about creating the work, but I think fashion is editorial and I want to talk about how you edit the work as well, like the planets that don't get to stay in the universe or (laughing) things, things that you have to take out of the box. Are there ideas like, for example, have there been prints that you're working on and you see it going it in a different direction and you might either stop working on it or keep it for something else or ...

Julian: I mean, for the 10 years we've been working, there's really not that much which we created which we didn't use. I always call it this is our kind of sustainability, like to not create stuff which we throw out and don't use anymore, but to create something and, if it doesn't really work in this moment, we keep it and reuse it in a different season or in a different project. And, uh, there is one or two prints which I know we've created which were nice and will work and, at the moment, I edited it (laughs) and I took it out and they're, uh, on hold, but they will come back. Everything is always coming back.

Liam: How did you come to the decision to save those for later?

Julian: I mean, we already had so many prints in this collection (laughing). Like that's what I said, like this whole, uh, Switzerland collection very kind of started where we ... like we never had this many prints in one collection. Usually, it's l-, it's like a third of what we did this season and, that season, and, uh, so these prints I'm talking right now, they're like a few seasons later where I realized, okay, we don't have to put all our gunpowder in one gun. We can use different guns for it (laughs).

Liam: Yeah. That speaks, again, to the abundance of inspiration in Switzerland.

Julian: Yeah, (laughs) again.

Liam: It seems right to address what is happening in the world and I'm curious what effect that has had on you as a creator and on your creations?

Julian: As I mentioned earlier, we already followed this new path of creating collections, but not necessarily putting them into the fashion circle season. So this, basically, had the biggest effect that we definitely did this. We're still launching, soon, the third part of the current last winter collection, which we, when we started to work on it, it was still autumn/winter '20 collection, but then, during the whole process, we realized that we need to divide it in different parts, and then now part two is coming and, uh, then we are currently working on the third part of this collection. So we, we stretched the whole thing and it kind of helped us to relax a bit, to not be too stressed about it, because fashion is a very, very stressful business. Like you're basically always running behind. Like to create a whole collection, putting it out, producing it all in one season is really ... it's, it's tough. It's really fast.

It's very a fast business and, uh, this kind of helped us to relax. Like, you know, there were productions were closed. There were ... like not every fabric were, they were able to deliver, so we were like we take it as we go, and everyone kind of understood that maybe some delays will happen and it was okay for most of them and we're just going to keep on this more healthy kind of, (laughs) uh, work way also for the future. Even if this pandemic ever is going to end, we will keep on with this more, uh, (laughs) relaxed way of working.

Liam: Yeah.

Julian: So this was one of the biggest effect it had for us. Also, to rethink products, like what do we need these days, what can we create so the customer will buy it? It's not necessarily only fashion. We did a lot of little accessory things this year, like just a bit more ac- accessible to possess, I say, like you need less money for it (laughs). So this also kind of pushed us into this mo-, in this direction a bit more, which is just helpful for the shop.

Liam: And I'm the proud owner of some Zigerli masks as well.

Julian: (laughs). That was basically our business for 2020 (laughs).

Liam: Yeah–

Julian: And, luckily, we started very early with, uh, with the whole production of it. It took me also a moment to process are we really going to do this, are we really going to make money off of a pandemic and really create masks? But, when we tried it out and we did it the first time and we used up all our archive of fabric, so that was the whole idea, to not produce something new because everything was closed anyways, but to use what we had, leftovers, and then we did it and we did like maybe 10 or 15 designs in the beginning. We took pictures of it always with a matching piece of clothing, like same print. I looked at the pictures and I was like, "Okay, this is actually going to work. This is actually ... we created fashion." So, for me, it was like just another beautiful accessory we created.

Liam: Has it been challenging, on a personal level, to continue working during this?

Julian: Um, we are a very, very small team. My studio is quite spacious, so this was actually kind of a safe place for us (laughs). It was nice to be able to go somewhere and keep on working and ... since everything else was closed or now, again, everything else is basically closed, so there's not that much else you can do. And to have like a very warm environment and really beautiful workplace, it helped. Like it felt good to, to go to work (laughs).

Liam: That's probably something a lot of people are feeling. I don't think I would ever miss an office as much as I do now (laughing)-

Julian: Yeah (laughs).

Liam: ... as, as nice as it is to be able to work from home.

Julian: We never really experienced that. When the first lockdown came in spring, March, was it, the first one or two weeks, we were like, "Okay, what are we going to do?" We stopped everything. Like we didn't carry on working on the collection. We're like, "Okay, we're not going to spend any more money on any collection." The shop is closed. There's not really that much coming back in. Online was good, but not major. Like our shop's very important. So, for two weeks, we were cleaning the studio (laughing) until we came up, okay, let's start with, uh, [inaudible 00:32:38] Early, which was like our pillows and blankets. So we created pillows and blankets, and then the masks came and then, literally, we worked our asses off to satisfy our clients, our customers, so we've been busy the whole 2020, and we never had the issue of like staying home too long (laughing).

Liam: Yeah, I think that's very fortunate.

Julian: Yeah.

Liam: All right. Well, thank you for joining me for this conversation.

Julian: Thank you (laughs). It was a pleasure.

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